The Quantum City Show

Ep 27 | The $9 Billion Bet on Vermont | How Rob Lair Is Building the Anti-Silicon Valley

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We've been talking about what makes a quantum city for a while now. Rob is in the middle of building one.
Rob Lair, co-founder of Hula Lakeside Investments, joined us this week and the conversation took on a life of its own. 
 
Eight years ago, Rob and his partner Russ Scully converted a vacant oven factory in Burlington, Vermont into what is now 150,000 square feet of coworking infrastructure — and layered on top of it a venture fund, a 100-investor network, and a thesis that private capital deployed by people who love their community is the most powerful force in economic development. Their portfolio grew from a combined $400 million in market cap to over $9 billion. One of their companies, Beta Technologies, just IPO'd at $7.5 billion. Their founder was Rob's neighbor.
 
The thread that ran through the entire conversation was leadership — specifically, the idea that GDP growth and business formation don't come from government or institutions. They come from private capital with a long time horizon and a genuine connection to place. Everything else, including housing, childcare, the zoning reform, follows from that.
 
In this episode:
The Hula model: How bricks-and-mortar infrastructure that cash-flows at a 7% cap, combined with a community investment arm, produces something WeWork never figured out
Place-based investing as a real edge: Why knowing your founders as neighbors — not as deal flow — is a structural advantage no coastal fund can replicate
Why housing has to come first: Hula is breaking ground on 1,400 residential units in July because economic development without housing is, in Rob's words, a waste of time
The CRE opportunity in tier 2 cities: Rob's practical framework for how a developer should be mapping capital formation and startup momentum as forward demand signals — not looking at comp supply
Venture math and the right time horizon: Why failure is part of the economic development, why the PayPal Mafia effect is the whole point, and why a 10-year minimum clock is non-negotiable
Appraisals are two decades behind: Banks are underwriting major projects with backwards-looking market studies while the data to do it properly already exists. Rob makes the case for what this should look like in an AI era
State of venture in 2025: The post-pandemic recovery, IPO windows opening and closing, and why Rob won't accept that place-based investing means lower returns
The next cities to watch: Portland, Maine is Rob's top pick. Boulder, Colorado is second. And none of this, he argues, is a zero-sum game with the tier one markets
 
Rob, thank you for joining us. This was one of those conversations we'll be thinking about for a while.
TIMESTAMPS:01:19 Rob’s Origin Story
04:19 Building Hula’s Engine
07:36 Can Burlington Scale
13:37 What Cities Need
17:02 Winning Over Government
19:23 Venture Time Horizons
28:15 Place Based Capital
30:59 CRE Future Challenge
32:04 Capital Flows Forecasting
33:15 Hula Model Spreading
34:22 Placemaking Beats Backward Data
36:22 AI Underwriting Heatmaps
39:31 Designing For Company Lifecycle
42:32 State Of Venture Today
47:43 Alts And Capital Allocation
49:56 Smart City Data Vision
54:12 Rapid Fire City Metrics
56:14 AI Prompting Workflow
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Ep 26 | Why Data Centers Are Moving Downtown - And What That Means for Every City in America with Daniel English of Legacy Investing

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30% of office buildings in America are functionally obsolete. That's $1.1 trillion of commercial real estate sitting vacant, aging, and bleeding value. The question everyone is asking: what do you do with it?
Daniel English has an answer. And he just bet $40 million on it.
Daniel is the Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Legacy Investing and he just acquired the former Chicago Board Options Exchange headquarters at 400 S. LaSalle Street to convert it into a 33-megawatt AI data center. The building sold for $12 million 16 months earlier. He's putting hundreds of millions more in equipment in without a single tenant signed.
That's not recklessness. That's a thesis.
In Episode 26 of the Quantum City Initiative Show, Greg sits down with Daniel to unpack why data centers are migrating from suburban campuses to NFL cities, why the building that launched electronic trading is now being rebuilt as AI infrastructure, and why the data center industry's biggest problem isn't power or latency — it's that we've built data centers that look like prisons.
There's also one idea in this episode that will reframe how you think about every building in your portfolio: data centers are not designed for people. They're designed for servers. And that distinction — something that sounds obvious — turns out to unlock an entirely new playbook for what to do with the office buildings no one else can figure out.
Also in this episode:
Data Centers as Civic Institutions: Every photo of your family, every iMessage, every digital memory you own lives in a data center. So why are we running political campaigns against them?
The AI Inference Explosion: Daniel explains why AI inference — the compute that powers your LLMs in real time — is expected to 10x in the next five years, and why that changes where data centers need to be located
The Amazon Package Analogy: The single clearest explanation of why data centers work exactly like logistics warehouses — and why that means more of them are coming to your downtown
The NFL City Rule: If your city has an NFL team, you're getting data centers.
The Minneapolis Proof of Concept: Legacy built an AI inference node on top of a mixed-use office tower in downtown Minneapolis — and nobody driving past it knows it's a data center
The Grid Is 100 Years Old: Daniel's historical argument for why the power conversation is being misframed — and why data centers may actually be the catalyst cities need to finally upgrade aging infrastructure
Data Centers in Space: Why this idea gets laughed at in every industry cocktail party Daniel attends (and why the maintenance problem is the real answer)
 
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 — Intro: Strata backstory, and the $1.1 trillion office problem
01:45 — Daniel's background: tech startups, going public, and the shift to infrastructure
03:35 — What is a data center? And why does everyone think they're prisons?
06:15 — The civic institution argument: your family photos live in a data center
08:05 — Data Centers Are Heading Downtown
09:55 — AI inference explained: the Amazon package analogy
13:05 — The NFL City rule: where data centers cluster and why
18:20 — Power and the grid: why the 100-year-old infrastructure argument changes everything
24:30 — Greg's snowstorm story and the moment you realize you take the grid for granted
26:40 — The CBOE building: vacant for four years, rats included, now being reinvented
30:45 — Why you can put servers in the middle of a 50,000 sq ft floor plate — and why humans won't go there
33:40 — Washington's role: zoning, policy, and why no one defined "data center" in building code until recently
38:10 — What Legacy looks for in a market
41:50 — Hottest data center markets
43:15 — Data centers in space
45:40 — Rapid Fire Segment
 

Ep. 25 | Why AI Is Sending CRE Stocks Into Freefall (And Why That’s Wrong)

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When the AI panic hit Wall Street, the public markets went into an absolute whipsaw. Commercial real estate took one of its sharpest beatings in years - CBRE tumbled, JLL tumbled, and names like Newmark and BXP weren't far behind. The narrative? Investors were terrified that AI would automate the brokerage business, gut white-collar jobs, and crater office demand overnight.
 
There’s just one problem with that "doom and gloom" story: CBRE just posted record annual revenue of $40.6 billion - up 13% year over year.
 
In Episode 25 of TQCIS, we break down why this selloff might be one of the most "oversold" moments in recent history. They dive into why the Luddite Fallacy is the most underused framework in CRE right now, proving that efficiency doesn't decrease demand for labor - it usually explodes it.
 
We also look at the ultimate "vibe shift": Coinbase. After paying $25 million to exit San Francisco and declaring themselves "remote-first," they’re officially back with 150,000 square feet. It turns out, when innovation cycles speed up, the smartest companies realize that digital communication is not the best form for learning.
 
Also in this episode:
The AI Clustering Effect: Why San Francisco is proving that innovation still needs a physical epicenter (and why talent is a social species).
Tuesday is the New Monday: Placer.ai data shows the midweek spike is real. What does that mean for a lease built on "contractual lock-in" instead of customer success?
The Elon Effect: SpaceX is poised to raise more in its IPO than 90 companies combined. We discuss why Musk is arguably the most important "city-maker" alive today.
The Agentic Unlock: Greg shares how he’s using AI agents to get "brutally honest" feedback on sales pitches and account management in real time.
Is the office dead? Or is the "passive landlord" the only thing actually going extinct?
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 - Intro: Three feet of snow, no power, and the case against Boston as a Quantum City 
02:00 - Anchor Story: The AI panic that hammered CBRE, JLL, and the CRE market 
18:40 - Coinbase paid $25M to leave San Francisco. Then came back with 150,000 sq ft. 
24:50 - SF's bifurcated office recovery and the AI clustering effect 29:55 - Placer.ai data: Tuesday and Wednesday are the new Monday 
32:00 - What hybrid work really means for lease structures and concessions 
35:10 - SpaceX IPO: poised to raise more than all of last year's IPOs combined 
38:00 - Elon Musk as a city-maker  -  Austin, gigafactories, and the Mars thesis 
42:20 - Techstars Boston goes on hiatus. Bedrock Detroit picks up the slack. 
44:50 - Agentic AI in the real world: 3-year account expansion plans in 2 minutes
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#CommercialRealEstate #AI #CRE #OfficeMarket #SanFrancisco #Coinbase #ArtificialIntelligence #SmartCities #QuantumCity #RealEstate #PropTech #FutureOfWork

Ep. 24 | Real Estate Is At The Kids Table While Tech Makes Trillions with Dominic Endicott

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In this episode, we sit down with Dominic Endicott, author of "Knowledge Towns" and has been thinking about how secondary cities can win in a world where Silicon Valley takes everything.
 
One stand out point: real estate has $380 trillion in value but only $3 trillion in market cap. Meanwhile, tech went from $3T to $30T in the same period. Are we “stuck at the kids table while tech eats at the adults table” as Dominic phrased it? If so, why?
 
Dominic breaks down how places like Burlington, Vermont are beating major metros at their own game. They invested $200M at seed level, attracted $800M in follow-on capital, and just had their first $7B IPO - from a company that started in Boston but couldn't get funded there.
 
We wanted to understand how this actually works and whether it can be replicated. Turns out, it can. But American cities have to get over being "embarrassed" to want growth.
 
On this episode we dig into:
 
The "Kids Table" Problem: Why real estate can't capture value the way tech does and what the iPhone/AT&T story teaches us about platform risk
Burlington's $7B Playbook: How Vermont's Hula Collective created a venture ecosystem from scratch
The $10 Trillion Housing Bet: Why the real opportunity isn't AI data centers - it's building 10 million homes in secondary cities
Universities Are Broke: Dominic argues most universities are "well over their skis" with $1T in deferred maintenance and “Taj Mahal” research buildings that AI just made obsolete
Pittsburgh's Plan: The controversial plan to attract 500K people and $100B to a city that's "embarrassed" to want it
Ban Cars, Get Babies??: The Pontevedra, Spain story that proves walkability is what people really want
 
This conversation challenged a lot of our assumptions about where capital should flow and what cities should optimize for. If you're interested in how venture capital, placemaking, and talent attraction can actually rebuild American cities, pick up the book “Knowledge Towns.” 
 
Huge thanks to Dominic for coming on and sharing his vision for future cities. 
 
---
 
BEST MOMENTS:
00:00 Introduction
03:46 What is a Knowledge Town vs. Smart City?
07:25 Burlington's $7B Success Story 
13:50 Why Put Philanthropy Into Venture Capital?
17:40 Universities Are Functionally Bankrupt 
29:05 Amazon's $1T AI Infrastructure Play
37:20 The $10T Housing Opportunity Nobody's Talking About
44:50 Pittsburgh's Embarrassing Growth Plan
55:20 Why Real Estate Is Stuck at the Kids Table 
56:50 How Apple Ate AT&T's Lunch 
1:02:56 The Single Most Important Metric for Healthy Cities
1:03:15 Ban Cars, Get Babies: The Pontevedra Miracle
 
---
 
ABOUT DOMINIC ENDICOTT:
Co-author of "Knowledge Towns"
Director at North Star Ventures
Co-founder of 4Gen Ventures ($500M raised)
Sold consulting firm for $100M
Best exit: Jitterbug (sold to Best Buy for $800M)
 
Connect: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicendicott/ | Book: Knowledge Towns

Ep. 23 | The Transformation Economy: Why the Landlord Model is Obsolete with Joe Pine

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In this episode, we talk with a guest who has shaped our thinking for years: Joe Pine. 
 
Most know him as the author of The Experience Economy, but his newer work on The Transformation Economy is what we really wanted to dig into, especially given the "global AB test" the real estate industry has been forced into lately.
 
We start with Joe’s "nerd" origins at IBM and how he moved from applied math to defining the Progression of Economic Value. We wanted to get past the "fluff" and talk about why the current real estate model feels so stuck in the past or as we discuss, stuck in the year 1100.
 
On this episode we talk about:
The "Landlord" Problem: We got into why the term "landlord" literally dates back to feudalism. It’s a 1,000-year-old mindset in a world that’s moved on. We talk about why most office buildings today are just "means to an end" and how they’re failing to help tenants actually get better at what they do.
 
The "Matrix" Office: Joe has this wild vision for AI. Instead of just replacing jobs, he sees it as the tool that will finally let buildings "morph" to fit who you are and what you’re doing in the moment. It’s about personalization at a level that feels like science fiction.
 
Are You a "Racket"? This was probably the heaviest part of the talk. Joe argues that if your business is designed to addict people, you’re not a business - you’re a racket. We dig into his idea of "Human Flourishing" and why profits are just a scorecard for how much you actually help your customers.
 
The Transformation Chrysalis: We rethink what a city should be. It’s not just a collection of streets and shops; it should be a place where you go to become a better version of yourself.
 
Huge thanks to Joe for coming on the show and sharing his time with us. His perspective on why we need to move beyond simple services to focus on actual human results is exactly the push this industry needs right now. We highly recommend picking up both The Experience Economy and his newest work, The Transformation Economy, to get the full roadmap for what’s coming next. You definitely don't want to miss the shift.
Timestamps: 00:31 Joe and His Background
01:09 The Experience Economy and Transformation Economy
03:37 Commercial Real Estate and the Experience Evolution
05:58 Personalization in Commercial Real Estate
17:31 AI and the Future of Customization
27:06 The Purpose of Business: Fostering Human Flourishing
29:51 The Long-Term Vision: Investing Like Amazon
31:03 AI's Role in Enhancing Human Flourishing
35:42 The Role of Cities in Human Flourishing
42:33 The Future of Commercial Real Estate
45:27 AI in Writing and Personal Development

Ep. 22 | Singapore as a Quantum City & How AI Is Redefining What Matters in Commercial Real Estate

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AI isn’t a future concept anymore. It’s the infrastructure the economy is running on, and it’s starting to show up in places that feel very real, very physical, and sometimes very uncomfortable. Cities, energy systems, offices, and the buildings we keep arguing about all seem to be getting pulled into the same conversation.
 
Throw in massive AI investments, data centers that need more power than entire towns, communities asking tough questions, and a workforce that’s clearly restless, and things get complicated fast. Some of this feels exciting. Some of it feels messy. And some of it probably deserved a little more thought before it showed up in our backyard.
 
On this episode we talk about:
How AI has become the infrastructure the economy runs on and why this isn’t a short-term cycle
The Stargate project and what massive AI infrastructure means for cities, energy, and local communities
Data centers, power constraints, water usage, and the growing pushback against large-scale AI development
Why commercial real estate sits at the center of the AI transition and can’t stay on autopilot
The future of offices, burnout, and what it means when over half of the workforce is looking for change
Why the physical environment still matters and how space influences behavior, productivity, and retention
Quantum cities and what places like Dubai and Singapore reveal about different models of urban innovation
Singapore’s Smart Nation approach, digital identity, and why trust matters more than technology
Why there is no single blueprint for a quantum city and why some models don’t scale
The mistakes AI leaders risk repeating from the social media era and the growing gap between tech and society
Energy, infrastructure, and the question of whether big tech becomes the next generation of utilities
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TIMESTAMPS:
01:08 SpaceX and Tesla News
04:40 Interest Rates and Federal Reserve Update
09:30 Stargate AI Infrastructure Project
19:10 Workplace Trends and Employee Retention
31:51 Generational Perspectives on Technology and Learning
33:21 The Rise of Quantum Cities: Dubai and Singapore
39:07 Trust and Digital Identity in Smart Cities
43:23 PropTech Trends and Investments
49:49 Pop Culture and Tech: A Lighthearted Wrap-Up

Ep. 21 | How the Cities of the Future are Designed with Marwan Aboudib of Tekuma

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In this episode, we’re joined by Marwan Aboudib, partner at Tekuma (Tekuma Frenchman Urban Design), to talk through what it really takes to build cities for the future. Drawing from his work across global markets, Marwan shares how city-making actually happens when vision meets economics, policy, and real-world constraints.
 
The conversation moves past the usual smart city and quantum city hype and into the harder questions: what makes a city productive, why so many large-scale urban projects stall, and how technology fits in without becoming the main character.
We explore the intersection of urban design, governance, culture, and economics, and why cities only work when these pieces are aligned.
 
We talk about:
Marwan’s background and how growing up in Dubai shaped his perspective on cities
The early days of Tekuma, the challenges of building the firm, and the moment that pushed it onto the global stage
What “productive cities” really mean and why cities need to create more than they consume
The real challenges of urban development. From governance and ROI to moving beyond renderings
Why the future of cities is less about building from scratch and more about retrofitting what already exists
Community, culture, and why many mega cities struggle to feel human
Boston’s AI talent drain, Miami’s rise, and how lifestyle and branding influence where people build
The role technology should play in cities and where it often goes wrong
Greenland, freedom cities, and what happens when big tech ambition meets real people and real places
 
Huge thanks to Marwan for coming on the show and spending the time with us. His perspective, his honesty about what actually works in cities, and the way he connects people, culture, and technology made this a great conversation. 
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TIMESTAMPS:00:39 Marwan's Background and Career Journey
05:18 Founding Tekuma and Early Challenges
08:09 Winning the China Project and Expanding Globally
10:40 Philosophy of Productive Cities
15:44 Challenges and Opportunities in Urban Development
23:57 Retrofitting Existing Cities for the Future
29:55 The Importance of Community in Mega Cities
30:30 Boston's AI Talent Drain
30:57 Miami's Rise as a Tech Hub
33:03 The Role of Technology in City Development
34:58 The Future of Commercial Real Estate
38:31 Greenland: The Next Frontier for Tech Billionaires
40:59 The Human Element in City Planning
44:34 Quick Hits and Predictions for 2027
49:06 The Future of Cities in Pop Culture
52:47 Final Thoughts and Reflections

Ep. 20 | PropTech 2026: What’s Real, What’s Hype with MIT Guest Steve Weikal

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In this episode, we’re joined by Steve from the MIT Center for Real Estate, and we get into a real conversation about PropTech, AI, and what’s actually real versus what’s just hype. No sci-fi, no robots delivering buildings, just how this stuff is really showing up in commercial real estate.
 
We talk about:
 
Why some of the most powerful uses of AI might be in the boring, behind-the-scenes work
Whether AI is replacing jobs, creating jobs, or doing something else entirely
How hard it actually is to measure productivity and ROI in real estate
The global AI adoption gap and why the U.S. builds the infrastructure but others move faster
Agentic AI and the real question underneath it all: Do you trust it enough to hit the button?
Cities, housing, workplace shifts, and what signals actually matter going forward
We go a little rogue, get a little philosophical, and finish with a lightning round that covers everything from healthy cities to personal tech we can’t live without.
 
Huge thanks to Steve for coming on, sharing his perspective, and helping us think more clearly about where this industry is actually headed.
 
Hit play. This one’s less about answers and more about asking the right questions.
 
Who should we bring on for the next episode?
 
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TIMESTAMPS:05:30 Deal Path AI Studio Success
13:53 Global AI Adoption Divide
27:37 Measuring AI Impact
32:42 AI R&D Investment
40:33 Future of PropTech at MIT
43:34 Lightning Round

Ep. 19 | Bull or Bear? 2026 Predictions on Office, AI, and Capital Allocation

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We’re back for the first episode of the year, and instead of pretending we have crystal-clear answers for 2026, we do what we do best: zoom out, look at the data, and call out what actually feels different this time. 
 
2025 was loud, messy, and very AI-heavy, so we start there, breaking down why this so-called “AI bubble” isn’t behaving like past tech cycles. This isn’t just software hype. It’s physical infrastructure, energy, data centers, and real adoption finally showing up in the numbers. 
 
The “office is dead” narrative continues to fall apart, just not evenly. Leasing is back in a big way in places like New York, Boston, and even San Francisco, but the gap between winners and losers has never been wider. Experiential, flexible, high-quality workplaces are pulling ahead, while everything else keeps sliding. We talk through why the old Class A, B, and C labels are starting to feel useless, and why office is quickly becoming less about square footage and more about experience.
 
We wrap things up by playing a little bull-or-bear across asset classes, markets, and cities, where we’re bullish, where we’re cautious, and where we’re honestly just waiting to see how things play out. Along the way, we hit data centers, housing affordability, late-stage SaaS, capital finally coming off the sidelines, and a few city calls that spark some pushback. It’s a loose but grounded start to the year, focused less on dramatic predictions and more on how AI, office, and capital are quietly lining up as the next cycle takes shape.
 
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:38 Podcast Beginnings and Achievements
01:07 Year in Review: Highlights and Predictions
01:27 Corporate Purchases of Homes: Trump's Stance
04:20 AI Industrial Bubble: 2025 Recap
09:04 Data Centers and AI Infrastructure
15:53 Commercial Real Estate: Office Market Trends
26:10 Future of Brokerage and Flex Spaces
29:10 Bull or Bear: Asset Class Predictions
30:26 Bull Case for Experiential Retail
31:43 Bearish Outlook on Single Family and Multifamily Housing
34:13 Office Market Predictions
34:29 Bullish Sentiment on Public Markets
36:07 Late Stage SaaS Comeback
40:21 City Predictions: Winners and Losers
44:17 Wild Card Predictions for 2026

Ep. 18 | Why Experience Is the New Engine of Real Estate

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Social media bans, AI data centers, and real estate signals—what a week.
 
Australia’s move to ban social media for teens and why the feed is starting to look like “digital cigarettes,” plus the debate over an age “sweet spot” for social platforms.
 
We jump to SpaceX’s potential 2026 IPO and why liquidity matters far beyond stocks—impacting commercial real estate and infrastructure capital flows.
We also go deep on AI and data centers: why Norway’s sovereign wealth fund is avoiding the asset class, how hyperscalers hold the leverage, and why the real AI bottleneck isn’t the tech—it’s energy and the power grid. Meanwhile, Brookfield is going the other way with a $20B bet on AI infrastructure.
 
We wrap with youth sports as a $50B+ business driving hotels and mixed-use development, plus quick hits on San Diego, Fed cuts vs the stuck 10-year, Lever House hitting 100% occupancy, Boston’s JPM branding fight, Disney + OpenAI, social cannabis in Massachusetts, and an Amsterdam detour.
 
In this episode: social media ban, SpaceX IPO, AI + energy, data centers, youth sports real estate, Fed rates, office recovery, Boston skyline, and more.
 
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TIMESTAMPS:02:20 Social Media Ban for Teens in Australia
04:30 SpaceX IPO Announcement
07:27 Norway's Wealth Fund and Data Centers
11:10 Youth Sports as a Real Estate Driver
14:22 Irvine's Exit from Downtown San Diego
17:46 Fed Rate Cuts and Economic Impact
22:13 Lever House Achieves 100% Occupancy
24:11 JP Morgan's New Deal in Boston
25:03 Boston Skyline Branding Debate
27:02 Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund and Data Centers
28:46 Miami's Freedom Park and Experiential Real Estate
31:14 Alcohol Trends and Topgolf's Corporate Shift
32:05 SL Green's Opportunistic Debt Fund
33:09 Disney's Investment in OpenAI
39:44 Amsterdam's Canals and Social Cannabis Legislation